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Auteur Topic: Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?  (gelezen 30148 keer)

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Offline sinkas

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Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?
« Gepost op: 29-07-2008 04:03 u »
Hello, I am an Australian hobby brewer , sorry I have little Dutch ability.
I enjoy the Scheldebrouwerij and Ij beers from your country, particularly the Schelde Oesterstout.
Does anyone have any clone recipes for the schelde beers?

Cheers,

Sinkas


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Offline Hopmans

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #1 Gepost op: 29-07-2008 07:14 u »
Hi Sinkas,

It seems that the beer is filtered whith oyster shells for a slight salty sea flavor.
The ABV is 8,5%.
Not to bitter, and very dark.
Its no longer in production anymore.  :-\

I can't find a clone recipe either.
 :weetniet:

Offline sinkas

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #2 Gepost op: 29-07-2008 07:30 u »
Thanks for the reply Hopmans:
I have cultured yeast for a bottle of Strandgaper,

this is my Oesterstoutclone recipe so far: Using the info on the bottle, and best guesses

I will filter the wort over shells prior to the boil


Batch Size (L):          20.00    Wort Size (L):     20.00
Total Grain (kg):         6.38
Anticipated OG:          1.075    Plato:             18.21
Anticipated SRM:          32.2
Anticipated IBU:          25.8
Brewhouse Efficiency:       75 %
Wort Boil Time:             90    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts--------------

Evaporation Rate:      15.00    Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:   25.81    L
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.058    SG          14.31  Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 89.3     5.70 kg.  Weyermann Munich I            Germany        1.038      8
  7.1     0.46 kg.  Weyermann Caramunich II       Germany        1.035     63
  3.6     0.23 kg.  JWM Roasted Malt              Australia      1.032    609

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 21.37 g.     Wye Challenger                    Whole    7.50  21.3  60 min.
  7.13 g.     Goldings - E.K.                   Whole    4.75   4.5  60 min.



SiriS

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #3 Gepost op: 30-07-2008 12:12 u »
Bestaat de Scheldebrouwerij eigenlijk nog wel?

Groet, SiriS

Offline Oscar

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #4 Gepost op: 30-07-2008 12:31 u »
Volgens de website nog wel.

Offline Drents Hopbier

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #5 Gepost op: 30-07-2008 13:02 u »
Volgens de website nog wel.

Nu wel in België:
De brouwerij zelf:
Wenenstraat 7
2321 Meer (gem. Hoogstraten)

Hopbier

Offline Eduard

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #6 Gepost op: 31-07-2008 18:45 u »
Laten wij ons dan voorlopig richten op het vinden van een kloonrecept van brouwsels van de Scheldebrouwerij. Ik heb overigens dit bier nooit gezien/geproefd. Gefilterd door zeeschelpen, schreef iemand?

Overigens, ik weet niet hoe de brouwerijen in Nederland/België over 't algemeen zijn, maar kun je niet gewoon vragen welk recept ze gebruiken? Zo heb ik van meerdere Noorse brouwerijen de rechtstreekse recepten gekregen van o.a. Nøgne Ø, Haandbryggeriet, etc... Niet geschoten is altijd mis :)

Offline JWVG

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #7 Gepost op: 31-07-2008 19:32 u »
Als het niet meer in productie is, is het misschien makkelijker om het recept op te vragen. Kent iemand de (ex-)brouwer?

JW.

Offline BuBS

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Re: Discussie over taal n.a.v. topic: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #8 Gepost op: 31-07-2008 20:47 u »
De brouwers van de Scheldebrouwerij komen ook op hobbybrouwen.
Dus wie weet?
Ze werken met Wyeast gist en welke gist gebruik je voor een stout... Guinness.

Gr BuBs

Offline BuBS

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #9 Gepost op: 01-08-2008 14:07 u »
Vanmorgen een van de brouwers gesproken en gewezen op deze draad.
Dus misschien geven ze wel antwoord.
Sinkas had ook al gemaild naar de Schelde, maar ze hadden nog geen antwoord gegeven.

BuBs

Offline sinkas

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #10 Gepost op: 01-08-2008 17:03 u »
Juicht Kaboodle toe, Zo, sprak u aan de brouwers Schelde? En zij vermeldden ik hen met de elektronische post had verstuurd? Grote vooruitgang! Case

Offline JWVG

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #11 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 11:05 u »
Hi Sinkas (Case?),

You can relax now - in this new section you can post in English. I'm not sure to what extend you followed our discussion, but the moderators decided that this will be a special section in which only non-Dutch speakers can start a thread. In order to keep the Dutch character of the forum, the rules are still pretty strict: this section is only meant for non-Dutch speakers who want to inquire on Belgian/Dutch beers and how to brew them. This is because it does not make much sense to redirect people with questions like that to english-language fora like 'Northern Brewer'. It is the only section in which English messages are allowed.

Since you are doing exactly what this section is meant for, I'm pretty sure you can do it in English (I'm paraphrasing what I've heard - I'm not a moderator, but this is my understanding. If a moderator wants to correct or corroborate - please do so).

Now, let's see if you make more sense in English than after an automatic translation into Dutch  ;D.

Cheers, JW.

Offline Oscar

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #12 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 12:01 u »
Grote vooruitgang! Case

Aha dus eigenlijk heet je gewoon Kees.  :D :D

Offline Edgar

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #13 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 12:24 u »
JW summed it up nicely. You can be somewhat proud that on account of your request, a revolutionary change has taken place on the forum ;D

Offline Menno

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #14 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 14:14 u »
a revolutionary change has taken place on the forum ;D

Edgar, you should mean: a BIG revolutionairy change... :elifant:

Offline Jacques

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #15 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 15:02 u »
The change is not so big. English is ony allowed on this particular board.

On the other boards Dutch must be written in a correct manner.

Offline sinkas

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #16 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 15:47 u »
Hi all,
 I will write in English, since my Dutch translation is a little rough.

My name is an Anglo-ization of Kees, don't know why, but that's the truth.

So we live in hope the Schelde brouwers will respond,

I particualry want to find out what they do with the bloody oster shells!

Cheers.

Offline JWVG

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #17 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 15:57 u »
Citaat
I particualry want to find out what they do with the bloody oster shells!

Me too: if they use it in the filterbed of the mash, my guess would be that the pH of the wort would be seriously affected as some of the calcium carbonate would dissolve. Also, of course, the Ca concentration of the wort would increase. There might also be an effect on micronutrients. And maybe some 'ocean flavours' of other organic compounds still in the shells.

Or it was just a marketing thing rather than a brewing thing, of course.

Jw.

Offline William

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #18 Gepost op: 02-08-2008 17:26 u »
Hi Sinkas, guess what....I have a bottle of Oesterstout in front of me.  ;D

This afternoon, I purchased this bottle at a beer festival. The bottle has a final shelf life of june 2009 indicating that it is rather fresh.

The label mentions the following ingredients (in order of ascending weight % added): water, munich malt, caramalt 120, roast malt 900, Challenger hops, Goldings hops and yeast. The latter you already have, only a matter of propagating it....Looking at your recipe proposal you would need to have higher amount of Goldings compared to Challenger hops.

The bottle further mentions it is filtered over Oyster shells. I guess the (milled) shells are not mixed through the mash. One reason to add it to mash is that it might lead to better filtering properties in case there would be a lot of oat or wheat malt present but is doesn't appear so from the ingredient declaration on the bottle.

Because this beer is from Zeeland, a province in the Netherlands closely associated with the sea, I guess the use of the Oyster shells is more emotional then functional.

I guess the shells mainly consist of silicates and some sea water ions. The silicates might take over part of the filtering functions normally used by Kieselguhr etc. On the other hand the beer is bottle-conditioned so it is not extensively filtered. :weetniet:


Offline JWVG

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #19 Gepost op: 03-08-2008 11:12 u »
Citaat
I guess the shells mainly consist of silicates and some sea water ions. The silicates might take over part of the filtering functions normally used by Kieselguhr etc. On the other hand the beer is bottle-conditioned so it is not extensively filtered

Hi William,

shells actually consist of lime (CaCO3), not silicates. Silicates are geogenic, not biogenic. So I think my remark about a possible pH effect, as well as an increase in Ca2+ ions (and possible some trace ions) is still valid. As a soil scientist working in the Netherlands, I work a lot with soils from reclaimed land. All of those soils that contain shell fragments have a high pH. It's difficult to predict whether the relatively short mash filtering period would also lead to such a pH increase, but it's certainly a possibility.

If you want to filter with silicates, use sand  ;D.

 :degroeten: JW.

Offline sinkas

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #20 Gepost op: 03-08-2008 11:25 u »
For some reason, I was thinking like a hop-back full of oyset shells, that had been boiled to sanitise, that was the wort soaks over them for a few minutes, picks up a little flavour, then on to the kettle.

In terms of the yeast, my attempts to culture from the oesterstout have failed, but I was able to culture from one of thier other beers, "Strandgaper",  Problem is, one of the previous posts, suggested that they use Wyeast Guinness strain for this beer.. (This post seems to have dissappeared)

I have a Leffe Blond type beer fermenting with the cutured Strandgaper yeast, will see how it turns out..

Cheers

Case

Offline William

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #21 Gepost op: 03-08-2008 11:27 u »
shells actually consist of lime (CaCO3), not silicates. Silicates are geogenic, not biogenic.

Ah, that makes sense. Good to have an expert here.  :groots: Do you happen to know the solubility of calciumcarbonate at say pH 5,4? Besides an increase pH, an increase in calcium ion activity also might improve amylase activity although adding calcium in another form might be more effective.

Offline JWVG

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #22 Gepost op: 03-08-2008 11:31 u »
I'm not a chemistry expert, but I would say that the solubility is not the issue, as all dissolved carbonate ions would react with the protons to form CO2 and H2O. Rather, the issue is the solubility rate. And that's of course dependent on the average grain size of the shells. Lime powder would dissolve much faster than a whole oyster shell  :nut:. And, of course, time is limited since your filtering time is limited. Difficult to speculate futher than that.... Asking the brewers would still be the best approach.

 :degroeten: JW.

Offline Edgar

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #23 Gepost op: 03-08-2008 16:22 u »
shells actually consist of lime (CaCO3), not silicates.

Hang on, isn't lime usually CaO? I would say CaCo3 (or Calcium Carbonate of course) is called chalk, no?

BTW I would personally forget this whole oystershell idea. Anything fishy I think would have to be avoided in beer and if it's just the chalk/pH effect, you could simply add some chalk. My 2 cents.

Offline JWVG

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Kloonen?
« Reactie #24 Gepost op: 03-08-2008 18:01 u »
Hi Edgar,

sorry, that's my background. In agriculture, liming means to add calcium carbonate. But you're right - in the 'normal' world 'Chalk' would be the better term. I also agree that you would need very, very good reasons to bother with actual shells....

JW.

Offline William

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?
« Reactie #25 Gepost op: 06-08-2008 23:51 u »
I just tasted the OesterStout.

The beer is very sweet-karamel, has a slight hint of a roasty taste but absolutely not that strong as you would expect from a stout. The flavour indicates the presence of esters. For me, the Oesterstout is more a quadrupel or may be a strong scotch ale then a stout.

The saline flavour of shells is not detectable for me. When I taste it I get the feeling that the Oystershell thing is really an emotional issue.

Offline sinkas

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?
« Reactie #26 Gepost op: 07-08-2008 09:08 u »
So,
 after tasting it, do you have any thoughts on the recipe I suggested?
Looks like trouble for the schelde yeast, its went from 1067- 1040 in 2 days , now seems stuck?

I also doubt there are many shells used in the brewing process,

Its a pity the brewers wont respond on this forum or via email.

Offline William

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?
« Reactie #27 Gepost op: 07-08-2008 10:27 u »
Looking at the low maltiness you may consider exchanging the munich malt for pale malt and increase both the cara120 and roast malt to compensate for color.

As I am thinking over the sweetness of this beer it might be the result of a high mash temperature (one step at 68 ºC) and/or due to the presence of additional chlorine ions resulting (....from the shells).

What mash schedule did you use?

A pity that the fermentation got stuck. How much starter did you prepare for your badge size?

Offline sinkas

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?
« Reactie #28 Gepost op: 07-08-2008 13:14 u »
Hi there,
 The Blonde, is using about a 1.5 litre starter, which probably isnt enough, but it was fully fermented,
It is an extract beer, as I was basically using it to grow the yeast and didnt have time to do a mash.

Regarding the recipe, the bottle as you will see states it uses munich malt, which I thought might have been responsible for the sweetness

Did you think that the zeelander brewer who mentioned the Guinness yeast was stating it as a fact or a suggestion?
(Its hard to gauge a post's intonation in a unknown language.)

Offline William

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?
« Reactie #29 Gepost op: 07-08-2008 13:36 u »
You are right that the label mentions Munich malt as the main malt source although I cannot find it back in the taste.

Did you think that the zeelander brwer who mentioned the Guinness yeast was stating it as a fact or a suggestion?
(Its hard to gauge a post's intonation in a unknown language.)

Bubs stated that they were working with a Wyeast yeast and that a stout should contain a stout yeast; I think you should read it as a suggestion not a fact.

Offline sinkas

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Re: Scheldebrouwerij Klonen?
« Reactie #30 Gepost op: 08-08-2008 06:45 u »
Thanks Will,

Well the blonde seems really stuck, agitation and upto 25C, and no drop in gravity, so I am making another starter, and pitch that, see if it will do the job.

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