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Foam stability

Gestart door Swedishbrewer, 27-11-2019 16:32 u

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Swedishbrewer

Hi!
I wonder how the commercial belgian breweries can get good foamstability even though they leave the beer on long secondary fermentations in cold degrees 4-8 weeks.
I have some theories, but I dont know if they are entirely correct.
1. They add Propylene glycol alginate
2. They add isomerised hop extract before bottling
3. They add a little nitrogen in the beer



joerisch

As far as I know a long lager-time (I think you mean lager time and not the time of the secondary fermentation) doesn't negatively affect the foamability. What information that I am missing tells you it does?

Swedishbrewer

Yes I mean lager time. When the beer matures in cold storage tank. The purpose of this should probably be to get rid of old yeast and get the beer clearer from rests of hops and malts. The latter should probably have negative effects on the foamstability.
I have myself problem with foamstability in my beer with long storagetime in both warmer and colder degrees.

joerisch

The problem that you are referring isn't directly a bad foam stability. The problem which you are referring to is the lack of carbon pressure, because there aren't enough healthy yeast cells in the beer to have a proper re-fermentation process in the bottle. To fix this issue, they seed fresh yeast (the same yeast as used before or specialized bottle yeast) with the bottle-sugar. This yeast converts the new sugar to ethanol and CO2 (and of course some other stuff like esters). This newly formed CO2 isn't able to leave the beer, because the beer has a cap on. This leads to an increase in carbon pressure and therefore to an increase in foam-ability.

Swedishbrewer

Sorry if I'm not clear enough.
I know very well that they add new yeast and sugar after coldstorage.
But when the beer is in storage, malt proteins and hoprests drop to the bottom. Malt proteins and hoprests are good for foamstability.

Jacques

Citaat van: Swedishbrewer op 27-11-2019  16:32 uHi!
I wonder how the commercial belgian breweries can get good foamstability even though they leave the beer on long secondary fermentations in cold degrees 4-8 weeks.
I have some theories, but I dont know if they are entirely correct.
1. They add Propylene glycol alginate
2. They add isomerised hop extract before bottling
3. They add a little nitrogen in the beer

4. They add tetrahop...

http://members.ziggo.nl/drents.hopbier/tetrahop.htm

Swedishbrewer

Thank you Jacques for the answer. Is tetra hop the most common use in belgian and trappist breweries?

As I see it, tetrahop has other advantages, among other things against the sun's influence. (skunk)

EBC

Tetrahop is Belgiums worst nightmare.

Please brew with natural hops.

Swedishbrewer

Thank you for answer. How to make a beer shiny while having a very good foam stability? Even the most genuine you can imagine Westvleteren has hopextract in their beer.
If most commercial Belgian brewers have hopextract. Why shouldn't you have it then?

Jacques

Citaat van: Swedishbrewer op 30-11-2019  20:12 uThank you Jacques for the answer. Is tetra hop the most common use in belgian and trappist breweries?

As I see it, tetrahop has other advantages, among other things against the sun's influence. (skunk)

Tetrahop is being used more and more.
It ensures a great improvement of the foam.

EBC does not like additions. He is a big fan of the Reinheitsgebot ...

Tetrahop is not available for us as hobby brewers. The shelf life is too short.

EBC

Citaat van: Swedishbrewer op 30-11-2019  20:45 uThank you for answer. How to make a beer shiny while having a very good foam stability? Even the most genuine you can imagine Westvleteren has hopextract in their beer.
If most commercial Belgian brewers have hopextract. Why shouldn't you have it then?

Do you know which other adjuncts your beloved Belgian Brewers use?
I could name 15 of them for starts, more if you wish. Such a shame.

You do not need hop extracts and such. Water, malt hops and yeast. Sugar is ok too. If you cannot brew proper beer with these 5, get back to the benches and learn.

EBC

Citaat van: Jacques op 30-11-2019  20:49 uEBC does not like additions. He is a big fan of the Reinheitsgebot ...
He is a big fan of brewing natural beers. Malt, natural hops, yeast, water, sugar, herbs if you like. No more.

But no other artificial stuff, no. Been too much in the industry to know what is used. Shame.

Eric111

I support EBC completely, i have a very good foam stability in all of my beers with only using water, malt, hops, yeast and sometimes sugar (no herbs anymore because they are not needed when choosing the right yeast and doing the fermenting temperature controlled).

I don't like brewing my beer with any additional stuff at all.  :degroeten:

Swedishbrewer

Citaat van: EBC op 30-11-2019  22:55 uDo you know which other adjuncts your beloved Belgian Brewers use?
I could name 15 of them for starts, more if you wish. Such a shame.

You do not need hop extracts and such. Water, malt hops and yeast. Sugar is ok too. If you cannot brew proper beer with these 5, get back to the benches and learn.


No I can not. I've been naive and thought that most breweries in Belgium have no additives in their beers.
I know very well what affects foam stability in the brewing process as well as the use of ingredients.
Skip the protein rest, mash a shorter time, dont boil to hard, use low alfahops (to get more polyfenols), magnesium and calcium affects,  use unmodified barley, wheat or oats and so on.
I have not had any problems in the past with shorter storage time in the fermenter.  Its only now with longer storagetime in the fermenter which I started to have problems with foamstability.
What is your solution for this?

EBC

Do they really leave their beer in tanks for 4-8 weeks?

Swedishbrewer

Citaat van: EBC op 01-12-2019  14:46 uDo they really leave their beer in tanks for 4-8 weeks?
A well known brewery in belgium leave their beer in storage tanks 3-6 weeks in 4 to 10 degrees.
Another 6 weeks at 0 degrees. Another below 0 degrees in 3 weeks.
A famous trappist brewery 4-6 weeks at 10 degrees. Another famous trappistbrewery 4 weeks at 8 degrees.


8 weeks may have been a bit excessive. But it is a long time in cold temperatures.



EBC

Citaat van: Swedishbrewer op 01-12-2019  18:16 uA well known brewery in belgium leave their beer in storage tanks 3-6 weeks in 4 to 10 degrees.
Another 6 weeks at 0 degrees. Another below 0 degrees in 3 weeks.
A famous trappist brewery 4-6 weeks at 10 degrees. Another famous trappistbrewery 4 weeks at 8 degrees.


8 weeks may have been a bit excessive. But it is a long time in cold temperatures.

I know a Belgian brewer that sells their lager 12 days after brewing. I must add that this is the most high tech brewery in the world. But still.
I do not believe the many weeks stories.

SanderH

Citaat van: Swedishbrewer op 01-12-2019  18:16 uA well known brewery in belgium leave their beer in storage tanks 3-6 weeks in 4 to 10 degrees.
Another 6 weeks at 0 degrees. Another below 0 degrees in 3 weeks.
A famous trappist brewery 4-6 weeks at 10 degrees. Another famous trappistbrewery 4 weeks at 8 degrees.


8 weeks may have been a bit excessive. But it is a long time in cold temperatures.

That is what they are selling to you, the appearance of a "craft" brewed beer. Non of them want to have the beer in a tank longer than needed because it costs money if it is in a tank for longer times, it is not yet bottled and sold, so it is costing money.

Don't buy into those marketing scheme's , they are there just to make you believe that you are getting something better than you actually are.

Swedishbrewer

Citaat van: SanderH op 08-12-2019  14:12 uThat is what they are selling to you, the appearance of a "craft" brewed beer. Non of them want to have the beer in a tank longer than needed because it costs money if it is in a tank for longer times, it is not yet bottled and sold, so it is costing money.

Don't buy into those marketing scheme's , they are there just to make you believe that you are getting something better than you actually are.

Interesting. Have you work in a bigger brewery?
How long time is enough to coldstorage after primary fermentation?

Wolter

Citaat van: Swedishbrewer op 27-11-2019  17:08 uYes I mean lager time. When the beer matures in cold storage tank. The purpose of this should probably be to get rid of old yeast and get the beer clearer from rests of hops and malts. The latter should probably have negative effects on the foamstability.
I have myself problem with foamstability in my beer with long storagetime in both warmer and colder degrees.

Maybe the reason for your foam stabillity problems is to be found somewhere else in de proces. A lot of foam problems also start with stress during the fermentation. Overpitching can have a negatieve effect.

You can also try to mash in at 54C and directly warm up to your first mash step from there to see if this will bring a change.

Med vänlig hälsning


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